A worker of the Malaysian Fisheries Development Board (LKIM) in Batu Maung, Penang, made this unusual find when she was given the 1.7kg fish by a fisherman at the jetty recently.
When contacted, Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM) Muka Head marine research station head Prof Dr Zulfigar Yasin said this is the first time he had heard of fish with legs found in the Malaysian waters.
“There is a possibility that the fish could have swum from other waters into Malaysian waters.
“As far as I am concerned, fish species with legs or bony fins can only be discovered in the waters of North Sulawesi in Indonesia or South Africa,” he said.
136 comments:
wow atheist will try and use just about everything to make "the truth" seem unreal
Wow. Amazing photo.
I have no idea why a shark would have legs. As far as I know, none of it's evolutionary ancestors have legs.
Nevertheless, I fail to understand how someone could look at this picture and, from it, conclude that there is no God.
When I discovered a moron with 2 legs I still believed in God, why would this be any different?
Yeah, belief in God has nothing to do with facts or evidence. It's just made up stuff.
Sheesh!
religion is many things...magic and fairy tales comes to mind. the cause of many , many deaths due to wars. pedophilia comes to mind as recently the catholic church spent about $650 million in hush money and payouts. i do not believe in any god...don't people understand that religion is a way to control the largely poor masses...i am seriously what has religion done except cause death and destruction? i believe in me...in mankind...i do not need any "god" to tell me what how to love a proper life. good grief...without religion this world might actually have a chance.
I'm sorry, but that's actually the shark's sex organs, the shark has been cut up. Please do some research before you jump to conclusions.
Btw, I'm an evolutionist, but I still think this is crap
a shark with two legs is a reason to belive in god!
"wow atheist will try and use just about everything to make "the truth" seem unreal"
If something requires a leap of faith to believe then you are excluded from asserting it is the truth to others. You are merely spreading a belief and should present it that way.
The reason this find is used as a challenge to creationists is that it is a good demonstration of evolution.
This world does not have much chance with so many people with such poor grammar.
Creationists are idiots. However, atheists who think that they see evidence that there is no God are as stupid as the creationists. Agnosticism is the only intellectually honest point of view, considering the impossibility of evidence either for or against a divine being.
In short, both creationists and atheists need to shut the fuck up and live and let live.
Um, how did my post entitled "shark with webbed feet" turn into a religious discussion?
Many Christians do believe in evolution. After all, if we're going to believe that God created the universe and everything in it, why isn't it plausible that He could have created evolution as well?
Ahmen subhazard, and I just have to say how entertaining I find it that before anybody (besides an advertisement for a website) had any chance to suggest that this had anything to do with evolution (it doesn't, and even if it were feet it would just be a mutation, something that facilitates evolution but is not actual evolution itself) there were three different people jumping on the defensive for God. Suddenly a story about a mutation in a shark has become yet another argument about the value of God.
AHMEN!
God and Religon have nothing to do with each other. If you read the bible and what Jesus was saying, even Jesus wouldn't go to very many churches in the world, if any. No where in the bible does it tell you to have and do "Church" the way we see church today. Curch has turned into a corporation, Jesus would be on the streets helping, loving and healing people and relationships in this world, not just looking out for himself...
Re evolution, The DNA of a person is so long and so complex that if you cnage one thing in it you kill the future of that creature, DNA experts say it was engineered and designed, any randomness to a DNA strand would make the creature lame, thus making it an easy prey or just unable to survive on its own... don't even start to think about the reproductive systems, the first generation to not have the reproductive system working perfectly would end the life cycle.. aargh..too much to write, my 2 cents... don't give up on God, just Give up on Religion.
"I'm sorry, but that's actually the shark's sex organs, the shark has been cut up. Please do some research before you jump to conclusions."
True, although it's not really supposed to have those things in the end of its penis ...
hahaha, Rick-- funny.
Your post was placed on DIGG.com with the title "Explain this, Creationists!".
http://digg.com/news
Front page, good for you! :)
Cheers.
Article is on the front page of digg.com as of 11:30am CST.
Prepare for a lot of religious debate.
damn i was writing so quickly i made many mistakes...sorry about that. oh yeah and stacy, robert and keith are all idiots. religious people must be pretty damn vain to imagine that in this whole universe we are the only ones in existence...and that "god" looks like us...gimme a break. try getting an education, perhaps that will open your eyes.
If this is for real??? then which way is (supposed) evolution now going? Wasn't the fish with legs part supposed to have happened a vewy vewy long time ago?
This thread became a religious discussion because of a heading that said "Creationists: Explain this!" which is an obvious throw down.
It disapppoints me to read of all the name calling and hostile rhetoric. Whether you are a person of faith or not, is that really necessary? Is that good for humanity? Really people, in a world of possibilities and perspectives, don't you think it is possible that someone could be both intelligent and end up on a side of an issue different than your side?
Let's debate. Sure. But let's also lead by example and keep it civil.
Ah I see, hematochezia dugg this.
Well I knew you'd be good for something someday, brother! ;)
I'm dying to see how the "young earth creationist" types are going to try to wriggle out of this one. A fish that develops legs in a single generation... That's pretty darn fast. The creationists insist that it couldn't happen in a million years!
I like my religion in the form of science.
all who think this doesn't disprove there is a god, is an idiot. the whole point of this is the proof of EVOLUTION. the church says there is no evolution, just intelligent design. as in creatures are made by god and never evolve. however a 'fish' with legs, is a clear sign of evolution. this can prove that life started mainly in the sea, and evolved to live on land and in the air.
Thats a fascinating find, but it doesnt prove anything. its another anomally of nature that was found to prove one theory or the other when in reality it doesnt matter. If evolutionists REALLY think that this helps their case, then its truly evident that THEIR belief in evolution requires more faith than that of creationists and christians everywhere.
And though the insitution of the Catholic Church has flooded the many sects of Christianity, even within those denominations, there r those who believe that the truth does not lie within the instituion of "religion". instead, there is an almighty being, a "force" if u will, that guides the happenings of this planet.
Because evolution is such a faith-based theory, it should make u wonder about whether it truly is appropriate to slash at each others throats when many of us stick to beliefs that r purely the essence of our desires to be independent and free from the concept of a living and Almighty God. If thats the case, then it merely builds the evidence of His existence, and in no way hinders it. of all beliefs, christianity is the only one that calls for the person to give up himself to a greater being and to sacrifice his desires for the purpose in store for them.
Point being, these weak attempts at proving this evolutionary theory are not only weak, but also a sign that our world is lost to the desires of our wickedness.
but cool fish, though.
I wish people would just spend more time actually searching for truth, actually researching different points of view, and just spending time listening to each other than they do yelling, and calling everyone else who disagrees with them stupid. THAT would make this world a much better place.........
Who says theres no evolution?? The Bible clearly says (Genesis-1.24)
Then God said, "Let the EARTH bring forth living creatures after THEIR kind: Cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"
there is evolution and what ever church is doing this need to read the Bible with a little bit more understanding.
Who says theres no evolution?? The Bible clearly says (Genesis-1.24)
Then God said, "Let the EARTH bring forth living creatures after THEIR kind: Cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"
there is evolution and what ever church is doing this need to read the Bible with a little bit more understanding.
Perhaps people should actually read the post rather than attack scientific fact. This post was simply showing an interesting picture. Whoever submitted it to Digg gave it a slant, which in turn pissed off the religious (which is like shooting fish in a barrel) - it's an oddity. Enjoy the picture. Leave the religious debate to the talking heads.
"all who think this doesn't disprove there is a god, is an idiot. the whole point of this is the proof of EVOLUTION. the church says there is no evolution, just intelligent design."
Its funny how evolutionists think they are very scientific and rational whereas they are the most dogmatic , single-minded people.
This picture doesn't prove anything (for creation/evolution).
Is it possible that it was a mutated gene that led to those webbed feet/reproductory organs?
Is it possible that this is a very rare species? (If you read the article properly, you'll see where it is noted that fish with legs have been discovered in Indonesia and Africa)
How does this prove that life started mainly in the sea, and then to land and air and not the other way around (this could be a "more advanced form" of a seagull, for instance)?
I guess the real question is how is 'feet' more genetically developed than 'fins'?
Is it possible that the creator incorporated evolution into the creation process?
Questions for the creationist-challenged folks out here.
@Seth
Your first paragraph was great, I totally agree and I think you're a better person than most.
Your second paragraph however was complete BS and shows how little you understand genetics or evolution.
A) DNA in humans changes all the time. Not only are there small changes with each generation, but your very own DNA actually has very small changes over the course of your lifetime.
B) Evolution isn't about big changes. You don't need to change an entire chromosome to see significant changes in an organism. The difference between a human and an ape is less than 1%, yet the difference in our physiology (our bodies) is quite remarkable.
C) Changes* that 'break' things typically (but *not* always) result in the organism dying before it can reproduce. Only once in a very many generations does a significant change happen that doesn't 'break' something, which over many more generations constitutes an adaptation (also known as the process of evolution).
Lastly, for all the boneheads here. Evolution is not an event. It doesn't just happen and then it's over until the next big event. Evolution is an ongoing *process*. You can't point at any one change and call it evolution or not-evolution.
* not just mutations, but the acquisition of 'bad' genes like the ones that increase the likelyhood of cancer.
Just for the sake of full disclosure, I believe in evolution and God.
But according to evolution, shouldn't a shark w/ legs first have tiny little proto-legs or something? I mean, you don't go from normal shark to shark-thing in one generation. Also, if this is the real deal, how'd the tail disappear and leave TWO legs behind?
Just some thoughts.
But, yeah, cool fish.
The appendages pictured are not feet, they're called claspers, the shark equivalent of the mammalian penis. It may be an adaptation to ensure a better grip while the sharks are mating. It does not, however, suggest that shark will evolve into benevolent, god-less, super-human beings within the next five years (or sooner, thanks to global warming, right?)
no one said anything about there being no god from this article. so why are you religious people acting so defendant over nothing?
Reproduction organs : http://laelaps.wordpress.com/2007/03/14/um-those-arent-feet/
How does the validation of evolution prove the non-existence of God? In what rule book does it say that if evolution exists (which it obviously does, but to what degree is still unknown) that God does not exist and vice versa?
It's pretty hilarious to believe that a picture of a shark with what appears to be feet (or its peepee cut in half) can prove or disprove the existence of God.
This may or may not be evidence of evolution, but if it were, wouldn't we be finding a lot of sharks or other sea life with feet as well? When a child is born with a birth defect, why don't we consider that evolution? Could this simply be an example of a shark with a mutation? Does it really prove anything?
You can believe in God or not. You can believe in evolution or not. You can also believe in God and evolution. Believe in what you will, but who are you to call people idiots for believing in something when you don't have any answers?
You knuckleheads need to stop referring to this animal as a fish. It's a shark, not a fish.
"You knuckle heads keep calling this animal a fish. A shark is NOT a fish. It's a Shark. It breaths air. Get it straight."
Jason, where did you go to high school?
In Jason's head all animals that breathes air are not fish.
so a Shark is not a fish
mmmh
The only problem with that logic is that all fishes breathe air.
Talk about Knuckle-head.
They look like claspers, not legs.
Reminds me of this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=J65yRvN8DPs
this story is fishy
These legs may aid it in swimming. you evolutionists and anti-godfolk always forget that we exist in the first place, that we do live and have consciousness, not merely maintain a complex electrochemical reaction. you can watch a lego set fold itself in silence and darkness in another dimension and world without life and without consciousness, but it doesn't matter. we live, we're here, we have these bodies, and God is good.
Uhmm...if we 'evolved' from the ape, why are there still apes?
Um, why was my first comment removed? There is no reason for debate because these are "feet" but reproductive organs. Why anyone should have a problem with that, I don't know.
'Because evolution is such a faith-based theory'
Say what?!?!?
@mark
How many times have I heard that... some things evolve, some don't. They live in different climates and different places, and slowly they grow differently. We did not come from apes! There was a thing, some of that species evolved into something that eventually became apes. Some eventually became humans. If you don't understand, alteast make a slight effort to!
Nock Nock candy-gram.
the truth about GOD is he's here to watch, there are too many sicko religious freaks looking for an excuse to say GOD would do this or GOD would do that OR GOD wouldnt do this cause this isnt right. stop preaching, please it annoys everyone. Evolution exists, animals, mammals, and other species adapt to their current situations. I dont doubt GOD exists, but how the hell do you know what he did precisely, or what is done in his good favor? Honestly, you GOD people need to wake up and realize whats happening. It's sad and pathetic. I am not an athiest, I am agnostic, I do not believe he changes the creation of creatures, just merely guides them in the after life. That was for all you religious freaks who think I am an athiest.
As for the picture, that is wild. It is simply astounding that it has feet. If it sexual organs in reality, a shame, but still interesting.
To Bruce:
Your assurance that GOD only watches is falling into the same assumption that GOD actively participates. How do you know and how can you say what God does or doesn't do?
Thats just it Eric, no living person will ever truely know wether GOD is real or not. It is a matter of Faith. I do belive that there is true Devine being that watches over all. I also believe in evolution. I also think that it takes just as much FAITH to believe that the Universe just happened one day thru the Big Bang as it does to believe that their is a GOD who created it all for his own pleasure.
Hey, anyone here know what claspers are?
http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/topics/lh_2penises.htm
Now look where they are on the shark.
http://a-s.clayton.edu/biology/biol3650l/initial_shark_muscles/shark.htm
While it may be a development of the fin developing out on a new area, I'm rather sure a female shark would not be happy when a male shark tried to insert the pictured into her.
Ok, I was going to stay out of this but Mike from the STL's comment is driving me nuts here, so here goes:
Yes, Mike, you can not disprove the existence of God, nor can you prove it. Unfortunately, that is an utterly worthless statement, and by making it you have accomplished nothing. Do a Google search for the FSM, the celestial teapot, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, et al. That argument, that it cannot be disproved thus it has some credence, has been thoroughly destroyed.
Second, your statement that "it takes just as much FAITH to believe that the Universe just happened one day thru the Big Bang as it does to believe that their is a GOD who created it all for his own pleasure" is horrifying to me. The reason belief in God requires FAITH is that there is not a shred of evidence to back up that belief. The big bang, however, has been all but witnessed by scientists, and the evidence for its occurance has filled volumes. Belief that it did occur hardly requires faith in the same sense that belief in God requires faith.
Religious people are the most ignorant in the world. Why dont you just believe in a giant flying spaghetti monster
?
The truth is people are idiots. God can not be proven or unproven. Therefore to a person of science he does not exist. On to the point of evolution, many people still see the Darwinism theory as man evolved from monkeys, but these same people have never actually read Darwin and do not know that, that is actually not what he is saying. My last comment is this:whether you believe in a higher power or not, how can truly believe that god created the earth in seven days, or that your theory of the beginning of the world is better the the romans?
You're all idiots. The lot of you. I don't care if you think God created the universe or if it was natural phenomena.
You all are fucking religious idiots, the atheists and the creationists.
You know why?
THOSE AREN'T WEBBED FEET, THOSE ARE THE SHARKS PENISES. THEY HAVE TWO OF THEM YOU FUCKING BRAINDEAD ARGUMENT MONGERING TWATS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shark#Reproduction
I won't even bother to reveal what I believe regarding the evolution vs. creation matter.
All you people care about is bruising each other in the eye. Not about truth.
Give it up, and move on, for christ's sake.
I talk to god about this ...he said huh I dont know ,...get off my back ..your on your own ...now stop callin ME!
Wow, I wonder how some of you even manage to feed yourselves, never mind using a computer.
First of all, evolution and the existence of god are not mutually exclusive. There's no proof against some supernatural being creating the universe through the big bang and then letting it run its course. However, there's no proof in favour of it either.
Furthermore, the religious view of creation is completely ludicrous. There are between 200 and 400 billion stars in the milky way alone. There's about a hundred billion galaxies in the universe. Even if most of those stars don't have planets, that would still leave a ridiculously large number of planets around. Are we to assume that we are the only one on which there is life? That's ridiculous. Scientists have been able to make amino acids (the basic building blocks of proteins, which in turn lead to all life) out of water, methane and ammonia in a lab, so its absolutely ludicrous to presume it can't happen in nature.
Religion on its own is, in my opinion, on a par clinical insanity. If you convince yourself that a divine being created all there is in six days 6000 years ago but don't have any proof for it, how are you any different from all sorts of conspiracy theorists, or schizophreniacs?
If someone said that the sky was red, you'd have to take their word for it. You have no proof other than what you think you see, so as far as you know, it is. You only believe its blue because that's what you see. However with religion, there's nothing to see. Nobody has ever seen creation happening, nobody has ever performed or witnessed a miracle that stood up to rigourous investigation.
On the matter of evolution, a lot of people seem to think that it just happens instantaneously, that one creature magically transforms into another. It doesn't happen that way. Evolution happens through mutations in offspring, who go on to pass those mutations to their offspring if its beneficial, or die out if its not. Evolution doesn't affect all the members of a species at once either. Mutations don't happen all at the same time. Likewise, mutations aren't flashy things like "grow an extra pair of hands", or "get a dorsal fin". Things don't just magically pop into existence like that. Gradually, over time, base pairs in DNA start changing, get copied wrong, and if these changes allow the creature to survive long enough to reproduce they are passed on to its offspring. In turn, they too could mutate, and if the changes are beneficial, they get passed on. Its tiny changes over countless generations that add up to the diversity of life nowadays.
I apologise for the long rant, but stupid people really grind my gears.
Peace.
You know....I really don't understand how you could think that a Divine being could create the universe in six days could ever be rediculous...if the being truly is divine and all powerful, why couldn't he?
Furthermore, the idea that humans evolved from monkeys is seemingly ludicrous in itself. If we all evolved, why the hell are there still monkeys? Hmm?
And, might I add, that in one of Charles Darwin's last works, he renounced the evolutionary theories that he'd so vigorously defended and said that there must have been a Divine power involved in the creation of the universe and that brought us to where we are.
Do you know what the original title of the "Origin of Species" was? I'm pretty sure you don't, the goverment keeps it out of the textbooks...."The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection OR the Advancement of the Preferred Races."
Kinda makes you sick, doesn't it?
The original theory was, since we'd evolved from monkeys and their skin is black, Africans/blacks/African Americans weren't as far evolved as we were.
In addition, I do agree with one point most atheists have in common- religion can be a tool. It can be used to pull massive amounts of people into a false sense of security and use them to earn money, to exploit, and even ruin lives.
HOWEVER
Religion does not mean going to church. Religion means believing in a higher power of your choice, whether it be Allah, God, Jesus, or the bush in your front yard, worshiping that higher power, and following it's teachings. If you read the Bible, you find that Jesus wasn't exactly pleased with the High Priests and Pharisees of the Jewish faith...he instead ministered to them himself, which shows that you don't always have to have a preacher or a man of the cloth to guide you and tell you how to live.
In addition, I would like to add that nobody really knows how long it took God to create the earth. In the old testament, somewhere in the book of Psalms, it says "To You, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day." How long, exactly, were those six days?
Maybe agnosticism is the most logical method of belief, as someone has previously posted, but beliefs are just that: BELIEFS. If you want to think one thing, fine. If you want to think something else, that's cool too! My main point here is that you need to look into what you believe instead of just automatically believing it. Pry it open, disect it, check every little detail, and when you're finished, if you can still believe it, put it back together and have a great time with it.
The final thing I would like to point out is that the evolutionary theory believes that at the beginning of time (which apparantly materialized out of nowhere, by the way), all the matter in the universe (again, out of nowhere) was compressed into a small dot, tinier than the head of a pin. It exploded, due to some chemical reaction (again, from nowhere) and created everything. Nothing exploded and created everything, that's the belief. After that, the earth was a big rock. Giant...rock. And it rained. It rained for millions of years on this giant spinning rock, and when it was done, the water eroded the rocks and became what is now reffered to as the primordial soup. Toss in a few more chemical reactions, and you get single celled organisms. Those became fish, lizards, amphibians, those grew legs and got out onto land, those became monkeys, monkeys became humans.
The breakdown?
In the beginning (from nowhere) nothing exploded into everything (from nowhere) and then rocks became soup through rain, which became people.
Rocks=people? Hmm...
I don't think I'm a rock, folks.
If I'm wrong, then the powers that be have changed the public view of the evolution theory since I read up on it last.
Cool pic of the shark, even if it is mutated reproductive organs. I didn't know sharks had "claspers". Learn something new everyday. I'm surprised in the article the professional didn't recognized them for what they are and went on to talk about fish with legs near Indonesia.
Again, I didn't know that near Indonesia they have fish with legs. That's what I get for living half the world away. Kinda makes me wonder what they have been dumping in the water over there.
If you find a picture of a cat with tentacles, let me know cause that is worth a religious debate over. *wink*
The Big Bang theory is based on matter and anti-matter reaction that occurred at the beginning of time out of pretty much nothing. Now we know that due to the conservation of energy and conservation of heat laws of physics, this just can't happen with out a LOT of energy.
Nuclear physicists have "created" matter with photons by colliding them together. Sure, it doesn't last very long and it takes really good aim, but they have done it.
My personal theory is that God was that original super-energy. Why not, noone else has a better explanation. I also believe God influenced the formation of the celestial bodies. It probably took millions of years because I know I am tired after spending all of my energy to explode everything into existence.
So then He probably influenced the formation of the earth. Then wrote the recipe for DNA and cooked up a batch. A little ammonia, a little lightning, a dash of this, a smidge of that and he got DNA. Then He put it in motion, every once in a while giving it a nudge here, and a coaxing glance there until life is how we know it.
Species develop and then they die off, all while God overlooks it and keeps everything in line. Never really doing anything as spectacular as the Big Bang, but by this time he has it almost automated.
Sure our DNA originated from rocks, chemicals, and some electricity. Always wondered how our nerves were based on electrical/chemical impulses. Not that big of a stretch being called earthen vessels.
If God did all of that, why couldn't he have given us souls or consciousness...whatever you want to call it.
Now, I just want to mention that this is all my personal conjecture. Doesn't mean I think everyone else is wrong. This just makes sense to me. It may seem quite a bit like a fairy tale, but aren't fairy tales based off of real events, or ideas of how real events COULD have happened?
Faith can't dictate the boundaries of science. In the same way, Science cannot disprove the validity of faith. Either way, taking an extreme point of view without adding some healthy humor is a dangerous combination.
I figure we will all find out shortly after we die what the true nature of our existence is. Until then, debates are fun as long as we continue to treat each other like human beings, whether created or evolved because either way, we are all equal.
Sharks grow legs when they need to kick ass. That's in the bible too.
will somebody PLEASE go watch Aliens of the Deep by James Cameron, itll shut everyone up thats like oh my god, amazing discovery, fish with feet...how bout they use em to..hmm...WALK??
Hi
???
this debate is useless
here's more fun stuff :)
http://www.idolornot.net
(Harfehesaab)
I enjoyed every bit of Crimson's argument. It allows any body of any faith to find a place and yet be respectful to others. Thanks mate:)
Damn you Rick Strom and your webbed creature from beyond. This is obviously a primitive contact attempt by the land walking shark people of Aquatis 4...everyone shut the hell up and enjoy this tasty webbed fish with some white whine...btw believing in evolution does not make someone an atheist, its like saying that if your against the Iraq war then you are a terrorist...there's alwasy another position...why am I rembling on about this crap, I just want that delicious fish
PS I can't agree with Duncan Trussell's argument that they grow feet to kick ass, everyone knows that they simply sprout a 6 foot ball and chain from their dorsal fin...duh
You all know this is pointless-there is no proof of God, and strictly speaking no proof of Darwinism-stop debating the pointless.Whether or not sharks can grow legs is truly irrelevant-these things exist purely to cause speculation and NO there is no answer especially not from the gods or from evolution
In particular I would say You all know this is pointless-there is no proof of God, and strictly speaking no proof of Darwinism-stop debating the pointless.Whether or not sharks can grow legs is truly irrelevant-these things exist purely to cause speculation and NO there is no answer especially not from the gods or from evolution
Anyone wants to debate that then please do-I look forward to cutting you down hehe-sorry defensive
This is truly a fallacy-sharks are cartigenous not bony and as such the lies live on-btw-A shark in not a fish and neither is a Ray-nor an eel sharks and rays have no calcium skeleton and an eel has it's organs arranged in a different order (Professor Rachel Graves-Southampton oceanographic centre)
To Crimson:
I'm perfectly willing to accept that some sort of divine being was at the origin of the big bang, but the story of creation as told in Genesis is ludicrous. It places the Earth is the centre of creation which is just born out of man's ignorance of the rest of the universe.
Not all monkeys evolved into apes and then into humans. Some evolved along different routes and all the changes they acquired made them modern-day monkeys. If the same species evolves along two different routes, eventually they won't be able to mate with each other, they'd be too different, making them separate species.
"Kinda makes you sick, doesn't it?" Why? Are you implying that there's nazi ideas in his works? Races that can survive do so, and those that can't die out. Traits that enable species to survive get passed on, change over time
Also, religion does mean going to church, and performing rites. Belief in a divine being is not religion, it's known as deism.
First of all, the big bang did not occur out of nothing. Nothing can come out of nothing. Maybe God did it, maybe he doesn't exist. But there's no evidence for any interference from any supernatural being. Nobody knows what happened before the big bang, all we have are theories. Then, with the kinds of energy and matter compressed to such a degree, time and space lose all conventional meaning. traditional chemistry does not apply, so it didn't explode "due to some chemical reaction". The Earth didn't materialise out of nowhere. there's way in which planets come about. All matter on earth was once part of stars since the heavier elements were created during stellar fusion. When the earth formed, it wasn't a giant rock. It was an accretion of the remains of dead stars and dust that eventually became large enough to hold a gaseous atmosphere. that atmosphere was composed of hundreds if not thousands of compounds. As the earth cooled, steam taht had been present in the atmosphere condensed. It didn't spontaneously rain, and certainly not continuously over the whole planet for millions of years. Electrical storms and spontaneous reactions led to the formation of certain molecules. Eventually, purely by chance, some of those molecules were able to make copies of themselves. Slowly, over time, some of the molecules weren't copied correctly, but these new copies could reproduce better, so they spread, and kept changing, and gained in complexity, until you had single celled organisms, and from there it's just a matter of evolution.
The breakdown:
The primordial soup refers to a mix of various molecules in the oceans of primitive earth.
Rocks do not = people. People are not made of clay (as implied in certain texts)
Brian Powell said...
I wish people would just spend more time actually searching for truth, actually researching different points of view, and just spending time listening to each other than they do yelling, and calling everyone else who disagrees with them stupid. THAT would make this world a much better place.........
One of the more intelligent posts!
Agnosticism certainly has something going for it...an openmindedness.
By the way, I agree that this shark was either partially butchered, or only partially developed, as it certainly resembles genitalia as found on mature sharks.
Ah damn, I was hoping this was going to be an example of an organism genuinely gaining a new trait through genetic mutation... oh well. However, the fact that so many were convinced (including myself, until someone pointed out the existence of the clasper)does highlight one point of evolutionary scientists - pre-existing anatomy can, eventually, become adapted for uses other than the original; ie these claspers may, in time, serve another function, even as far as developing into actual, functional limbs. After all, they certainly look the part already.
Oh well, now that I've said my initial piece on the photo, I'd like to respond to some of the comments posted...
Keith said...
When I discovered a moron with 2 legs I still believed in God, why would this be any different?
==>Humans typically have two legs; sharks tend not to have any. Grow up.
Henry said...
religion is many things...magic and fairy tales comes to mind. the cause of many , many deaths due to wars. pedophilia...
==>Discrediting the opponents position by making personal attacks is amateur stuff. Surely staying on topic WITHOUT insulting others is a fairly simple task...
Mark said...
If something requires a leap of faith to believe then you are excluded from asserting it is the truth to others. You are merely spreading a belief and should present it that way.
==>Well put! Unfortunately, the people that makes these leaps of faith are unlikely to admit that they are being illogical at all, in fact they probably don't even realise they have erred; hence their vehemence.
Fat Pig Phong said...
Creationists are idiots. However, atheists who think that they see evidence that there is no God are as stupid as the creationists...
==>Spoken like a true jerk. Gotta love the complete lack of justification/reasoning behind your post there, buddy.
Samantha said...
Many Christians do believe in evolution. After all, if we're going to believe that God created the universe and everything in it, why isn't it plausible that He could have created evolution as well?
==>That is certainly a workable compromise between evolution and the christian faith. I never really understood why so many religious people interpret evolution as a direct attack on their faith.
Seth said...
...Re evolution, The DNA of a person is so long and so complex that if you cnage one thing in it you kill the future of that creature, DNA experts say it was engineered and designed, any randomness to a DNA strand would make the creature lame, thus making it an easy prey or just unable to survive on its own... don't even start to think about the reproductive systems, the first generation to not have the reproductive system working perfectly would end the life cycle.. aargh..too much to write, my 2 cents... don't give up on God, just Give up on Religion.
==>Wow. Stunningly incorrect. Brief point by point rebuttal: Errors in DNA are entirely normal. The effects have a wide variability. (1)Some are harmful (potentially fatal), most do nothing. Very occasionally, the mutation will actually be beneficial - a core concept in genetics. (2)Experts do NOT say that DNA engineered and designed, except for those with a strong religious bias - to the point where their scientific impartiality is actually impaired. (3)Creatures can survive perfectly well in most cases, despite genetic mutations. (4)Detrimantal mutations tend not to get passed down to subsequent generations, due to the fact that they are less able to compete with the rest of the population.
Wow, long post! More to come...
killerk said...
Thats a fascinating find, but it doesnt prove anything. its another anomally of nature that was found to prove one theory or the other when in reality it doesnt matter. If evolutionists REALLY think that this helps their case, then its truly evident that THEIR belief in evolution requires more faith than that of creationists and christians everywhere...
==>Wow, you would think that in all this rambling there would be maybe one or two statements that actually made sense/had a point. Sadly, it was not to be. Every single staement you make was either nonsense or completely wronng. For example: evolution is most certainly not faith based, as it has a truly massive body of documented evidence supporting it. In fact, the Theory of Evolution is one of the most thoroughly established scientific theories in history. Calling it a faith is both incorrect and a logical fallacy - for if you are seeking to discredit evolution by comparing it to religion, then you are also insulting your own christianity, which is most certainly a faith. Also, stow your smugness and your moral superiority, they have no place in this discussion. You are right one one thing though - this one photo, by itself, proves nothing. Luckily, evolution already has a vast body of evidence, feel free to check it out.
Sunny said...
Is it possible that it was a mutated gene that led to those webbed feet/reproductory organs?
==>Well yes, which is what evolutionary scientists have been saying all along - genetic mutation is a key concept in evolution.
How does this prove that life started mainly in the sea, and then to land and air and not the other way around (this could be a "more advanced form" of a seagull, for instance)?
==>What is your point here? Either case would be a clear example of evolution at work.
I guess the real question is how is 'feet' more genetically developed than 'fins'?
==>Well this is a moot point since it turns out the things are claspers rather than legs. However, if those appendages were actual limbs, it would be considered an advantageous mutation simply becaus the fish still seems to have working fins (enableing it to swim just fine) AND legs - granting it an extra means of motility.
Is it possible that the creator incorporated evolution into the creation process?
==>Are you implying that you believe in evolution after all?
Questions for the creationist-challenged folks out here.
==>Answers for the science-challenged folks out there.
Jason said...
You knuckleheads need to stop referring to this animal as a fish. It's a shark, not a fish.
==>Sharks ARE fish. Wiki it if you don't believe me.
Sunny said...
...The only problem with that logic is that all fishes breathe air...
==>No, *some* fish need air... the majority do not.
Mark said...
Uhmm...if we 'evolved' from the ape, why are there still apes?
==>The process of population diversification does not necessarily result in the extiction of one of the populations involved.
You don't seem to understand.
There is nothing that will effectively change the mind of a religious person in the divine demagoguery they live by and espouse.
The belief in religion is so more
insidious, unresponsive,corruptive to anything you could ever imagine, a mental affliction that perpetuates priority over the inexorable forces of nature and of life itself.
This is a very telling aspect to the extent in which religion is a depraved form of mental disease,one in which believers have chosen the worst most agonizing sort of of deaths, over nature's most inexorable of life forces rather than abandoning their belief in God.
Faith (in God) implies/means to believe in God's existence despite whatever (scientific) evidence would otherwise indicate to the contrary.
The emphatic fact about religion is that there is absolutely no difference cognitively between victims of religious belief in a Supreme Being and those who demonstrate mental disorder.
The depraved history of religion has demonstrated how unyieldingly it has embedded itself into the deepest recesses of the human psyche and that a mere mere silly little picture has no bearing on what has proven itself to be mankind's greatest of frailities.
You don't seem to understand.
Faith (in God) implies/means to believe in God's existence despite whatever (scientific) evidence would otherwise indicate to the contrary.
The emphatic fact about religion is that there is absolutely no difference cognitively between victims of religious belief in a Supreme Being and those who demonstrate mental disorder.
Um...those are just the shark's claspers. Nothing unusual. Move along.
http://cephalopodcast.com/blog/2007/03/15/malaysian-shark-with-webbed-feet/
I can't believe you're all still bickering over shark penis.
@Zackypooh
Thanks for setting me straight, I was so lost and thanks to you I now have a new outlook!
Dr. Yasin's comments were referring to the Coelecanth 4 legged fish recently caught offshore Sulawesi island Indonesia. See this article in Natl Geographic.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070522-coelacanth.html
Sorry there, mis-posted. Now I see something else. It could be this, as if the fish could have endured travel to other waters or it had drifted.
And I quote,
“As far as I am concerned, fish species with legs or bony fins can only be discovered in the waters of North Sulawesi in Indonesia or South Africa," It could be the miraculous thing that the shark was able to make the long way into there.
There is a simple stomach enzyme with a chain of 129 amino acids (lysozyme). The probability of that happening by chance, 1/20 to the 129th power, shows evolution to be mathematically impossible. To Christians who want to fit in with evolutionists, check Genesis again. You can't have it both ways.(MA in math, minors in chemistry and biology.)
Wow, i know this post is old but thought i would say something any way. First it was a shark that was cut in half if you look at the pic you can see that behind the "feet" the body seems incomplete. This pic wasn't to support one side or the other ot was just for people to look at.
I guess since yall ( yes i'm from the south) made this about evolution and religion i'll say something on that. I think that both play a key role in the development of this world, and on a larger level, this university. i don't think that we were created by the big bang or the primordial ooze both theories are based on randomness and i strongly doubt that this many creature would have been created from a single random event. Everyone should know that evolution is real any one who says other wise is stupid and who ever thinks that religion doesn't support evolution is stupid, people in religion might not support the thought of evolution. you can't base your opinion on the few. the best way to find out anything is to look for yourself thats all i have to say.
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